The Empire's media machine fawned over the new airline as if it were the answer to all the problems of air transportation. Surely, they opined, this was the way of the future.
Oops!
Winter of 2006-2007...
The Little Airline That Could Do No Wrong is the new focal point of passenger rage and media scorn. Can you imagine the terror? Why, they got stuck on a taxiway for ten hours during a huge snow storm at one of the busiest airports in the world where on a clear day, there is no extra gate space available. (I have been stuck on the very same taxiway for over five hours during summer thunderstorm season. Bingo fuel was reached after three hours but we could not return to the gate because of jet grid lock.)
I have an idea, though... Let's pass a New Law and force the Evil (and 1 good; well, now only semi-good) Airline CEOs to buy, ummm...
1. Snow Cat buses to plow through the snow drifts and rescue the stranded passengers! In the back of the Snow Cat people movers would be an automated, virtual attorney ready to take depositions relating to the horror.
-or-
(my favorite)
2. Emergency egress slides that inflate into polar shelters, complete with central heat, BBQ grills, and stores of dehydrated steaks.
-or-
3. Magic weather control machines to stop the snow and ice. I'll bet Airbus Industries could build this device... No problem.
This should raise the ticket prices only a couple hundred bucks...
35 comments:
Dave, enjoy the posts as always. I too agree that complaining to gate agents about weather delays should all but be outlawed. I worked my way through college for Greyhouse Bus Lines, and was always amazed that people wanted us to fire up the bus and get it on the road even when condidtions were on the verge of closing certain interstate highways (such as the Columbia Gorge in Oregon/Washington).
However, one thing did come to mind. Is it out of the question for airports often afflicted with weather some way to get stranded passengers off of planes:
One set of stairs and one shuttle bus that can used in all but the very worst conditions? Perhaps only if a delay is exceeding a certain number of hours (as I understand that this procedure, then reloading passengers back at the gate will consume some resources, although if you get past "bingo fuel" I'm guessing the plane has to come back in).
I do understand and apprecaite that this accomodation can't be made even for 2-3 hour delays. But we have heard stories of extreme delays, including the American captain in Austin who just said "hell with it" and pulled his plane back to a gate on his own.
P.S. Anyone know if the AA Captain was reprimanded, and what kind of jeopardy is a Captain possibly placing himself in for taking this kind of action on his own?
Quick follow up: 1. Forgive my spelling... I should have proofed my note. 2. I do understand that the AA Austin situation wasn't a snow/ice event. I simply wanted to pose a second question about how much a Captain can or can't do if a delay goes way past the point of extreme.
We all know that delays are inevitable. But ten hours locked up inside an aircraft going nowhere? Isn't that excessive? It's not like the bad weather is a surprise.
Why not PLAN cancellations? And rebook folks for the next day, before the airport closes. But that would require being pro-active, and even taking a financial hit. I'm glad that airlines get taken to task for this kind of maltreatment of passengers.
But the role of airport managers and ATC systems should not be overlooked. If ATC can forecast ground holds and flow control etc... then why not departure gate holds and pre-planned airport closures?
Was that a Jetblue flight at JFK?
I agree also, I mean what do the passengers want staff to do? Go and tell the clouds to stop snowing or something?!?
I am sure the staff were doing their very best, although I can imagine people would get fustrated after 10 hours. Shame is they moan at the people who are just doing their jobs. They are not superhuman.
Anyways, another interesting post Dave. Keep safe
> Shame is they moan at the people who are just doing their jobs. They are not superhuman.
The people were not doing their jobs properly. Keeping people in a locked airplane for many hours with inadequate supplies is negligent. Whether the negligence was mostly on the part of the pilot, or the airline, or the airport, doesn't matter to the customer & victim.
Being pro-active, JetBlue cancelled 23% of their flights this weekend to "reboot" their schedule.
Thousands of airliners push back every day without major delays. On rare occassions, there is the 10 hour on the taxiway story because of events beyond the airlines control. The Captain would go back to the gate after two hours, if he could. When you are number fifty in a snow storm, and the gates are full, then you are stuck for the duration. It is a numbers thing, as in the chances of the average passenger being involved in a 10 hour hold is slim to none. Requiring the airlines to spend millions on technology to remove passengers on a snow covered taxiway is, in my view, silly. The money could be better spent on safer airplanes, upgraded ATC facilities, etc.
It is a numbers thing, as in the chances of the average passenger being involved in a 10 hour hold is slim to none. Requiring the airlines to spend millions on technology to remove passengers on a snow covered taxiway is, in my view, silly.
There are many other "slim to none" possibilities on which millions are being spent: think of all the redundancy already in place. At some point along those 10 hours, the situation within the cabin should be deemed to create an urgent situation. You would not hesitate to declare a pan pan in the air with lesser reasons.
"Being pro-active, JetBlue cancelled 23% of their flights this weekend to "reboot" their schedule."
Actually they shut down their EMB-190 flights because they are simply out of crews. JBU was ridiculously understaffed on that plane even before this event.
Dave, ten hours is an inordinate amount of time to spend on a plane on the ground. I agree they are going to far with the laws, but seriously, how hard would some airstairs, a bus, and a TSA agent be to get people off them? You don't any new equipment. Sorry if you think I am being a whiny paying passenger, but 10 hours is too long. Now, lets' say, heaven forbid, another 9/11 happened while these guys were all sitting around on taxiways. How fast would planes be "double-parked" back at gates and pax run off into the snow to walk into the terminal? Sometimes it is a question of motivation.
Personally, I am surprised noone has gone crazy in one of these events, popped a hatch and made a run for it.
Another thing...this was not just one JBU plane. It was 3!
Ok, I can't give up on this... So here goes.
Anon- that is right. Spend the money on slim to non possibilities that will kill passengers. Ten hours on the taxiway in a snow storm is not an emergency. It is a huge inconvenience and is something that should be dealt with by the airline, not the government.
Loadmaster C141- You cannot unload passengers on a snow covered taxiway in a line of 50 aircraft; not safely, anyway. Which airliner are you going to unload first? How are you going to keep the passengers from running away, and believe me, some would. Then you would have a sterile area going non-sterile.
AS far as passengers going nuts, that has happened many times before. Passengers pop the emergency exits and all hell breaks loose as they dive out onto the tarmac. I have had it happen once.
Three airliners from one company... That makes sense if they are the biggest operator at that airport. I'm surprised it was not 20.
Dave, appreciate the insight. You are right... I was thinking about this and I'm probably more likely to be on a plane that loses an engine or gets hit by lighting than stuck in on a plane sitting on the ground for more than a couple of hours.
As someone in the travel industry (selling and promoting travel), it does seem that people want more and more entitlements while paying less and less.
You know what? I don't think I have ever had a complaint from someone coming into Las Vegas, staying at Bellagio, taking a $500 per person Grand Canyon helocopter tour.
But heaven forbid the person using a 2-1 food coupon thinks that the cashier looks at them the wrong way, and they are trying to raise hell with everyone in sight.
Requiring the airlines to spend millions on technology to remove passengers on a snow covered taxiway is, in my view, silly.
Agreed. But my earlier point is that we currently have systems in place that prevent aircraft from taking off to fly to over-saturated airports. i.e. Ground Holds.
There seems to be no such system in place for departing aircraft during long-term weather disruptions like snow storms, even when these storms have been well forecasted. Why not? Aircraft should not be loaded and pushed back from the gate and then left sitting in a snowbank for 10 hours.
If the airport departure rate is only 1 airplane per hour for whatever reason, then only 1 airplane per hour should be loaded and pushed back.
That's the solution. But as someone said, the motivation to set up and coordinate such a system is lacking.
Dave:
I find your argument about ticket costs unconvincing -- this isn't a matter of spoiled passengers asking for more legroom, fewer canceled flights, or free meals. While this doesn't apply to JetBlue, I read one place that airlines don't want planes to return to a gate during a long ground delay because they count late departures as late push-backs, not late takeoffs -- as long as you push back on time, the flight (supposedly) left on time. Can you confirm this?
Here's something that shouldn't raise ticket prices: let the airports and airlines adopt a code of ethics stating that after two hours or more on the ground, a plane has automatic priority for the next available gate (any gate) on request, and that after four hours, the captain must make all reasonable efforts to unload the plane. Granted, in a big storm, there might be a lineup and it would still take more than four hours, but there wouldn't be any 10-hour horror stories.
Dave,
Understood on the snow covered runway part. I still would hold the airline responsible though. I mean I would by no means sue or anything like that, but they certainly lost my business.
Take this analogy: You go to a restaurant. They are really busy and short staffed. They had no way of knowing that some travel bus was going to stop and fill their joint up. It takes you 30 minutes to get your drinks, another 30 to order, and when your food comes out an hour later, it is cold and not the right order. Do you go back there again?
As a business traveler, on the road about 3-4 months of the year, I am very good about understanding delays. It is just going to happen. But a 10 hour delay on the ground is excessive IMO and JBU would not have gotten anymore business from me. As a case in point, I used to fly Continental exclusively when up in the Northeast as they are generally the cheapest. Well, after 5 consecutive trips of being “Heavily” delayed at EWR (I spent the night twice), I decided I would not fly CAL anymore. That was two years ago. I pay about $50 more a ticket for a different airline, but I have yet to experience the horrific delays I always got with CAL.
I am so glad that I wasn't at JFK that day.
I can hear the government regulators stepping in to keep this problem from happening again. Yes, we'll all pay more for it, but 10 hours sitting on the tarmac is justifiable for what good reason?!
There is no excuse for leaving passengers on an airplane for 10+ hours due to an entirely forseeable event.
None. Whatsoever.
I hate to see a single new law passed, but airline whose management allow this kind of fiasco need punishment.
Perhaps the guilty airlines should have to give up slots and gates to those airlines that have management capable of anticipating that there might be a snowstorm in winter.
I have an idea also, lets pay some of our senior capatains what they can be replaced for, by those sharp youngsters with sharp reflexes, no need for " geezer glasses and able to multitask . I started using airlines in the dc.6 days and earned my ticket in 66 when the l.a. basin allowed "special vfr ( you could see the prop spinner) I use jet blue and i think they have the magic formula. thye appreciate their customers and they aint doin' doin then any favors by taking them flying. one other thing dave, i enjoy your blog.
sorry i didnt mean to go anon. must be the geezer glasses.
Jerry
As lowly SLF, I've sat there on the ground for a couple hours before, and usually there is a pretty good reason for it. The most annoying thing would be when a Captain doesn't bother to give us a hint as to what is going on. I can certainly understand passengers being hornery about spending 10 hours in the aluminum tube on the ground, but I agree that the solutions do not lie in empty Congressional gestures and media scare mongering. I also agree that throwing a bunch of money at an extremely uncommon and largely benign problem isn't worthwhile.
If it comes down to it, I'll take being treated like a piece of meat over paying more any day of the week. Yeah, its not glamorous, but I can't afford glamor.
Sitting in traffic for ten hours, car or airplane, reminds me of why I moved west...
garrett,
i think you meant "ornery"
;)
holy heck. weird Freudian slip there, eh. :)
Garrett, roger that... the Captain would have to keep things under control. This morning, I saw the embattled CEO on national news pleading his case. He looked bad! Little sleep and lots of stress, I would imagine.It is amazing how the worm turns... This guy could do no wrong for a couple of years, then one weather event and "boom!"
The late-night talk show comedians are taking their shots too. Must be a tough time to be the boss, but as one old salt used to growl, "That's why they make the big bucks."
During delays I've always made it a practice to 1/ Thank the folks for their ongoing patience. (We're all in this mess together kind of approach...)
and
2/ Make a PA announcement at least every 1/2 hour even if there's nothing new to report. It always helps me when I'm stuck in the back of a cascading delay, to know what the Capt. knows, and to be re-assured that we are not forgotten.
Arthur Hailey - Airport
1968; Arthur Hailey, Ltd.
Recommended although it contains some words that might be considered non-p.c. today. It's just some words that might sound odd in today's world. I did not find the author to be really unrespectful to anyone.
Dave,
Your blog has been named a finalist in the 2007 Travvies, the first annual blog awards. See here for the details.
I couldn't find contact info for you on the blog, so I wasn't able to e-mail you directly to let you know you were a finalist.
Congratulations!
Mark
Mark Ashley
Editor
Upgrade: Travel Better
Boy, what a mess... And the uninformed masses are rabid!
For those who say this is foreseeable, does your crystal ball tell you when the runway will close? Regardless, what do you intend to do with all the planes already in the air that manage to land and taxi, only to find all the gates filled with planes that have been turned around? Very few folks understand the enormity of the issue here. A quick fix, band-aid approach (which is what we'll see from the Congress, I'm sure) will only make matters worse.
And JetBlue is getting it from both sides... Folks are angry they were kept ON a plane; while others are angry they were kept OFF (ie their flight was canceled).
Now let me be forthcoming and say that there's a sizeable difference (pardon the pun) between a 737/A320 and 330/340 or a 747/777. My wife would go hysterical about 5 hours in, and I'd probably be the first one out the overwing door.
But, at least I could keep her away from the dangerous bits... Has anyone thought about how slippery a snow/ice covered taxiway is? The engines are MUCH bigger than you think whilst sitting inside, and they SUCK things up like there's no tomorrow.
And I can't wait to see the uproar over the unintended consequences here... 3 engines LAX to London, anyone? Legislators (especially those looking to capitalize on the hysteria) are unbelievable short-sighted.
I wonder how many folks that are complaining about the "horror" and "sheer terror" of being stuck on the plane for 10 hours - would be elbowing each other in the face to get free tickets to Sydney, eh? 13.5 hours...
Sam
Comparing a 13 hr trip to Sydney with ten hours on the taxiway is stupid. Do they run out of food and drink on the Sydney flight ? Are the toilets backing up on the Sydney flight ? Is it so hot on the Sydney flight that they open the cabin doors to let in fresh air ? I think not.
I don't care how darling the Jet Blue CEO was last year. What they did last weekend amounted to false-imprisonment and somebody should go to jail.
The pilot should never allow himself to become #50 on the taxiway under those conditions. The captain should lose his FAA ticket due to reckless operation.
I agree that the last thing we need is more laws. I never thought I would be on the side of trial lawyers but I think a few class-action verdicts into the millions would change the pilots' attitudes of " oh well, too bad, we're-all-stuck-in-this-mess-together" CRAP!.
anonymous- oh, please...
Dave...agreed, new regulations aren't the key. However, you can offload pax in a sterile area and keep the area sterile. Airports without enough gate space do this every day. My latest flight parked at an "outer" position and we deplaned, boarded busses and made the ride to the terminal.
It would take some planning on the part of the airport authority and airlines, to be certain. But that's what a contingency plan is, something done to cover the odd events. You train for all manner of not likely to ever happen events, there's no reason an airport can't have plans covering long shots either.
This is especially true at an airport where gate space is at a premium on a good day. If you're going to run the gates at 110% of capacity you better plan for when it all goes tango uniform.
Here's an idea for the folks who suggested the B6's JFK debacle was so bad and so much B6 management's fault that "somebody needs to be punished:" They already are! We don't need Congress to rein in airlines providing poor service, the traveling public does that quite well by not patronising businesses that are out of line. Better yet, they'll use a whole lot more proportionalitiy than Congress would. The severity of the blow to jetBlue's business will depend on how bad *customers* really think it is, not some pandering blowhard in Washington.
FWIW in case I wasn't clear, I don't think B6's management is at fault, at least not fully. PANYNJ is the bigger culprit here. Sorry but they're in the snow belt, same as Detroit who had a similar problem a few years ago. Given that they get their fare share of landing fees, gate rentals and fuel taxes from the carriers that operate there, they have the bigger obligation of crisis management.
What I don't cotton to is this "it's the weather and we're not responsible" position that is the kneejerk of airlines and airports these days.
LoadMaster- you can't blame an airline for airport delays most of the time. Continental is delayed consistently out of EWR, not because the Continental crew is late or slow, but because the crew can't get to the gate due to high traffic volumes (not Continental's fault) or the EWR contracted employee to move the Jetway to the cabin door is slow. EWR is #1 for delays...that's not the airline. Now, since one of Continental's hubs is EWR, they subsequently fall victim to this reputation. In fact, I figured out that they will increase the flight time on your boarding pass just to cover time in case of delays at EWR. So even if your wheels up time is 30 minutes later than scheduled, you'll still arrive on time. I love Continental, and only fly them (no offense to other airlines - just convenient and a satisfied business traveler).
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