Kick 'em when they're up,Kick 'em when they're down,
Kick 'em when they're up,
Kick 'em all around,
We got the bubble-headed-bleach-blonde,
Who comes on at five,
She can tell you 'bout the plane crash,
With a gleam in her eye,
It's interesting when people die,
Give us dirty laundry.
Dirty Laundry- Don Henley
Exceeding the F-Word limitation
Ok, I realize that I said there would be no more posts on this subject, but I am going to override that decision. Normally, I have the patience of Job... Just ask any co-pilot that flies with me. Especially, the new ones who are hanging on to Fi-Fi's tail. A hard landing? An embarrassing go-around? No problem... I will take the blame for it and do the paper trail (if needed) afterwards. It is part of my job. On the other hand, there is nothing that trips my profanity trigger quicker than a large breasted news blonde with that understanding twinkle in her eye talking about a plane crash.
The wife of my youth, a high-class, beautiful women, who has little tolerance for profanity, especially from her Captain, suggested I go out into the man cave and cool off before I throw something at the TV.
Where do I start? Maybe I should just shut-up. Seems like everyone is an expert on aviation matters nowadays. Yes, I have an idea that might fix all of the air carrier problems. The old Soviet carrier, Aerflot (yes, they are still flying) is a good model for our brave new airline. We can call it Ameriflot and staff it with good comrades who always get enough sleep, good low calorie vegetarian crew meals, and love their management... er, I guess that would be the government.
In the flight deck behind the pilots, there will be a Political Correctness Officer, a mobile NTSB investigator, a Government Aviation Official, and a Conflict Resolution Official for any arguments between the captain and the co-captain. There will be six people in the flight deck. Everyone must use mouthwash.
There will be no charge to fly Ameriflot, only a waiting list. If you want to go to grandma's house for Christmas, you get on the list. Of course, it will not be this Christmas or next Christmas, but you will get there eventually... That is, if you can pass the needs test. Why do you need to go to grandma's house, anyway?
On the serious side of this subject...
Lets get real here. Aviation safety has never been better than now, today, at this moment. You think it was good during the Golden Era? You are wrong. It was horrific! Airliners (main line) crashed on a regular basis crewed by ex-military combat pilots from WW2. They were the best of the best; yet, they still made big-time mistakes.
The mainstream media is dragging these two pilots through the mud with glee and then urinating on their memories. Yeah, it looks like the captain let his aircraft get away from him. The co-pilot was young, inexperienced and working for low wages, but chances were good that she would have made it through her servitude. She did not, though. My God, what a nightmare... A plane load of passengers gripping their seats as the Dash 8 spun in, upside down.
From the man cave, Life on the Line continues...
66 comments:
Great post, as usual....
As a student pilot who is almost ready for his check ride, the coverage that you are talking about is making me sick.
All my friends and family are asking me questions, which is fine because it gives me a chance to educate them about planes and flying, but the media isn't helping at all! The way they are all over the crew is just sickening to me.
I want to know what went wrong so that I can educate myself and fly safer (both personally and when I'm in the back on a commercial flight). But I don't wanna see the reporting being done like it is.
Anyway, I love your blog, and thanks for calling it like you see it!
I read through the transcripts yesterday, and am having a hard time reconciling the news reports with the transcript. Yes, they talked about job matters, outside issues, etc while flying, but they also were going through checklists and obviously doing something right. I can't help but wonder just how much of the real issue is that these two pilots were young, inexperienced, not particularly well trained on flying in adverse weather, and issues snuck up on them until they couldn't recover. Really, neither of them earned more than $25K, does not sound like they had any training flying in icing conditions, and neither had decent sleep in the previous 24 hours. Holy s&#*! Airline management should be tarred and feathered, not allowed to drag these two pilots through the mud for failure to follow "cockpit protocol" below 10K feet. I really feel bad for their families, to have the deaths of 70+ people dropped on their doorstep where they are unable to defend theirselves any longer.
Great blog, keep up the good work!
I continue to love a man who appreciated Mahler and Bob Jovi, relished world travel and his own basement "cave", and who was a quiet, good and decent human being. He was also a fighter pilot who flew 126 missions over North VietNam and who continued to love to fly vintage aircraft and teach flying, almost daily, long after he retired from active military duty.
He and a 30 year veteran captain of an international air carrier lifted off in a vintage plane a few years ago. I'm told it was a long, slow take-off roll that hot, humid midday. Available lift allowed them to clear the first set of trees at the end of the grass strip, but did not allow them to clear the thirty foot dead pecan tree thereafter. Both died upon impact with the ground. We had been married 28 years.
I clearly remember brushing our teeth together that morning, discussing what we were doing that day. I had a routine doctor’s appointment. He was so excited about his morning flight in that WWII plane and about the student pilot he was to instruct later that day. I also clearly remember standing alone in my living room that afternoon as I watched the local breaking news about the crash and the promise for "film at 11". My loss was compounded by my knowledge that another life was lost, as well.
Our son, then 25, spoke at his dad's service. He was amazed at the standing room only crowd that numbered over 500, amazed at the number of people his father had impacted even though, throughout his own life, his dad had not seemed to be anything special - just a regular dad who loved to fly. Our son let everyone know that his only wish was to grow to be a man his father would have been proud of.
Good and decent human beings pilot aircraft. Good and decent human beings survive as loved ones of those who fly as crew. I grieve for all the souls lost in Buffalo, but I especially identify with the crew families. Their emotions of grief and guilt must be overwhelming. So sad all around.
They didn't earn more than $25 k - Is that for real? Thats £17 k GBP! In the UK the guy's that sweep the road earn that amount of money. I can't belive trained professionals in charge of the lives of coutless others earn so little yet work so hard!
There is something deeply wrong here.
I don't know much about aviation, but I was also getting angry listening to the news.
thanks for the post.
Dave:
I share your dismay at the implications from some quarters that the pilots in this accident were incompetent. That said, it seems clear that at that critical moment their competence did not rise to the needs of the situation.
As I absorb the information emerging from the NTSB hearing I am becoming ever more convinced that these two professional aviators - one journeyman and one apprentice - were failed...dismally, egregiously failed, by the system within which they operated. Their training failed them, their operational support systems failed them, their professional confraternity failed them and put them into a box from which they could not escape.
Lot's of heavy responsibility to allocate; only the smallest slice can fairly be apportioned to Capt. Renslow and F/O Beck.
This is why I don't watch the news.
To be fair, the print coverage (as vs. the sensationalized TV coverage) appears to be as much critical of the airline for paying crap wages, overworking their pilots, and not providing adequate training for their pilots as it is of the pilots. I don't think anybody is suggesting Air Aeroflot as the solution to the problem of over-tired undertrained pilots, any more than they suggested it as a solution to the problem of airlines ignoring maintenance on their aircraft back when we had all those airliners grounded with frayed wiring or airframe cracks. You know as well as I do that if airlines could make ten dollars more profit by selling every pilot's first-born child to Satan, they'd do it in a heartbeat -- if they thought they could get away with it. Luckily we have laws and regulations prohibiting that. Otherwise, say goodbye to your first-born child!
And yeah, laws and regulations are like sausage -- pretty nasty things, if you've ever watched them being made, and the result is often fatty and unhealthy. But what's the alternative?
Lots of chickens coming home to roost here. I was a part of the fight to insure that pilots got enough rest and were properly trained back in the 60s and 70s. But management never did get it. If you watch a pilot at work you think he/she isn't doing much - except for takeoff and landing, just sitting in a chair and listening the the ATC radio. Hah, nothing to it. Anyone ought to be able to do that 15 hours a day and get enough rest with a 9 hour layover blocks to blocks. I have engaged in discussions and meetings with management trying to get it across to them the importance of crew rest but it has never been, IMO an accepted fact by most airline managers.
I cummuted for a good part of my career, but I always had a communal "pad" with 4 or 5 other commuters where I could get a decent nights sleep. Yep, it cost money, but I figured it was a part of the price I had to pay for living in the place of my choice -far from my domicile.
I flew in the good old days that you talked about. Accidents were more common because the machinery was not as reliable. Shut down two engines on a DC-6 more than one time. To have to do that always cut your margin for error. Losing one on takeoff (twice) was even more of a test. After we got the jets, the mechanical failures went way down. 25 years on jets and I had one engine failure, two hydraulics failures, two electrical problems, and two blown tires. Not a lot of problems for 20,000+ hours. So, it seems there is a correlation between accident numbers and mechnical failure. Of course better instrumentation, better procedures, better training, and ALPA pushing for decent crew rest - all had a salutary effect.
Been out of the game for 16 years now so I can't speak for how things are today. Maybe the commuter airlines are not doing the level of training they need to.
Truth be told 95% of accidents are due to pilot error. Weather, night, fatigue, mechanical problems, and inexperience can exacerbate things. The NTSB needs to get to the bottom of the causes and try to correct what went wrong. But they could also be more sensitive to the crew and their families. It doesn't do anyone any good to release audio tapes or other information for the MSM to use to denigrate them..
I hope that there is a special place for those who go down (die) still giving their best. I am almost certain that there is a place for those that run their mouths about things about which they know nothing.
Thanks, as always, for your post.
anonymous 105- well, that puts it into perspective...
frank van haste- some of what you say is correct, but there is a "Fate is the Hunter" connection, too. I can't believe the captain did not know how to recover from a stall. I think that is a bunch of crap.
Captain Glendenning- you guys were studs, no doubt. You are right about the equipment. Hell, I can fly 20,000 miles with out a single problem.
Loving the blog as usual, one thing the Obama administration needs to address is the the current regulatory requirement of 8 hours of rest after a 16-hour day has to include travel to and from a hotel, meals, and sleep. So when we see a requirement for 8 hours of rest required for a pilot to operate a flight that translates into only a four or five hour window available for sleep.
So for those of us with the office in the sky, we need to do something about it.
The regional airlines will not increase pay....ever. Somebody out there is always willing to fly for less.
Please forgive my ignorance, but as a pilot, if I am flying into a situation for which I am not trained (icing at night) with an inexperienced crew member with a head cold, with only 104 hours in type, and a bunch of souls on board, shouldn't I have some responsibility to make a 360 turn and find better circumstances?
If I am not trained or prepared for a situation, I would think that I would be responsible, regardless of pay or management pressure, to get out of that situation. So what if I lose my job? At least I am alive and don't have the death of 48 other people on my record.
Could training be better? Yes. Should pay be better? Yes. Did anyone FORCE the co-captain to take the low paying job? No. Did the pay suddenly change after being hired? No. Does anyone really think that the Captain purposely decided to continue into a known icing situation with inadequate training and kill himself and his passengers because he was being paid a low salary? No.
Didn't the Captain simply make the same bad decision that hundreds of GA pilots make every year...he continued to fly into a situation that he was not prepared or trained to handle. Nobody forced the Captain to make those choices did they?
As a pilot, aren't I responsible to know how to fly the plane that I log PIC time in. That means I should know how to recover from a stall....airmanship 101..
What decision would you make?
It's not that easy, Wes. People put up with low salaries at the commuter lines because they're building up their hours to try to get on with the major lines. Same deal with putting up with too many hours and flying while sick. If you make waves, you get fired, there's always another body that will take your place. You get fired, you never make it to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, because nobody in the industry will ever hire you again -- you'll be blacklisted.
This is a dirty secret of the airline industry, except it's not really a secret. It's the same principle that allows colleges and universities to mistreat adjunct staff, adjunct staff is trying to get to the end of the rainbow (a tenure-track position) and if they complain that they are given $8 an hour in wages to teach 500 bodies in a seminar class and making $10K a year only because they're teaching ten classes at three different local colleges, well, there's always another body to put up there to get that tuition money from those freshmen and good luck with getting that tenure-track position with a reputation as a 'troublemaker', it ain't happening.
What's the solution? Heck if I know. As long as we have a two-tier system, regardless of the industry, we're going to have this problem where the folks on the lower tier are mistreated and abused. The problem is that it's not a safety issue if a Math adjunct topples off of the podium and starts snoring in front of the class, or passes out because he ran out of money and hasn't eaten in three days, or if he utterly fails in his attempts to teach his class to solve systems of linear equations due to lack of experience and training. It's a bit more of a problem if a tired pilot falls asleep while landing the bird, passes out because he ran out of money and hasn't eaten in three days, or if he utterly fails in his attempts to handle a stall situation due to lack of experience and training... and maybe, just maybe, some sort of government intervention might be warranted to ensure that these lower-tier pilots at least get the rest, pay, and training to do their job safely? You might think?
I agree that overall aviation safety is good. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't continuously self-evaluate - and you've posted yourself how far teh study of human factors has come in understanding what is going on in the cockpit.
Flying is a critical and dangerous profession and the system is built badly - especially at the regionals. And to say pilots are just "putting in tehir dues" there is irrational, as the majors rarely hire and the first few year pay even at the majors is miniscul e too. To say that anyone can expect to be at their best making $16,000 a year, living with their parents, and commuting across the country before flying for the day is absurd.
Its awful they are blaming the crew for what is a systemmatic failure in regional airline system and the expected career path for new(non-military) pilots.
I somehow hope that things will improve (as a optimist) or that our system will just crash and we all just have to stop, maybe beeing forced into a different thinking pattern as it always is with us human beeings. Better chopping wood (I did) and grow my own crop for the rest of my life while beeing a free man than throw myself into what our society has become. For me the problem is not with the system. Its all the thoughts and minds combined together that fill it with life. Its us, frankly speeking. Beeing German I just have to have a chat with my grandparents about their good old times and it hits me in the face. When I look around watching people nearly stumble over another, trying to chase the wind I ask myself what is our/their goal with this. What is this tv presenter thinking life is anyway. What the heck is going on in those peoples mind? Something just turned upside down here. I should better shut up. Oh man, I think I really need a cave vacation, too :)
I deeply respect the author of this blog, as a man who loves what he does, and who correspondingly excels at it. I have read virtually every entry, and I find these pages, as a 'business million ++ miler', and an aviation buff (not a pilot), to be entertaining and enlightening - i.e. it's a great site.
Now here comes the 'but' - the point is, every business has customers and those in the business, are there to cater to the customers. As a horrifically frequent airline customer, I find the 'anger' over the media's coverage of this case to be very disturbing, and a bit disrespectful of 'customers'.
Bottom line is this - these pilots were incompetent. Flatly, they did the earth-bound equivalent of jerking the wheel into an oncoming telephone pole - i.e. they just messed up. It's clear to everyone that behind this, was a lack of training. WHY are 2 pilots flying in Winter, to Buffalo NY, not 110% versed in Winter flying !?! Why are they so clearly 'overwhelmed' by the situation, that they forget to monitor the details of the flight? As a customer, I don't care about anything beyond this - I expect 100% training, professionalism, adherence to the rules, and safety ! They fell short, and people died.
As a customer of the airlines, not trying to protect my colleagues, but rather trying to protect my own life, I can say that the media are spot-on - these 2 had no business carrying 50 passengers on that day, and we all know it.
The fact that I chose to put this comment here, is that the professionalism so clearly displayed by the author on these pages, was completely and totally lacking in these 2, and the contrast is shocking.
To my fellow 'customers' in the travel world - I encourage you to know the truth about these airlines, and to make appropriate choices. Some of these folks, are not fit to carry you or your loved ones! 10 years ago, living in and flying often to, Ithaca NY, after a 'near-Buffalo', I decided - mainline Jet service or drive. If the airlines can't afford a 'real plane' - It's not worth it - hop in the car.
It's time for you guys who do the flying and know more than these media idiots (cuz that's what they reall are...) to start firing back...
Media wants to throw mud? Throw dirtier mud back...
Hi,
@jbone: You are right. But your description of the situation lacks one factor: price. As long as there's no _real_ price for the given service (i.e. dumping, low budget) there'll be problems in funding. Technically speaking or just in a lack of training and some low training low time pilots sent into harsh conditions.
I guess if every ticket would just increase 10% in pricing, there would be a kind of Utopia regarding working conditions, delays and safety factors.
Kind regards,
Peter
PS: DAVE! Thank you for this great blog!
I have to agree with jbone's assessment.
The race to the bottom is as evident in the airline industry as anywhere else and we haven't reached the bottom yet.
The media has an obligation to expose failure in the system and that's what is happening here. Your choice is to not listen.
The amount of experience that has retired in the past few years and will continue to do so over the next few years from the ranks of air traffic control is staggering. Couple that with inexperienced flight crews and it will be a challenge to be able to continue to boast that the skies are safer than ever. It's simply not so anymore.
It's one thing to be able to control traffic or fly a plane under routine conditions but throw in some aircraft deviating for weather or icing conditions and the lack of experience begins to weigh more heavily.
I don't blame the controllers or pilots who get in over their heads as much as I do those above them who have created this house of cards.
I don't know who to blame, probably enough to go around. But I do think it's a sad state of affairs when the treval industry itself does not support the regional/commuter lines. I was on Kayak.com looking for a flight to MCO next month and noticed that you can filter out search results by type of aircraft... the choices are: "Any", "No turbo-props", and "No turbo-props or regional jets". This is just feeding the public's fears that are already peaking due to the type of reporting that Dave is railing against. Those planes aren't dangerous, the SYSTEM is dangerous. I would gladly pay 10% more for a ticket if I thought it would help ease the problem, but I'm afraid that it would just go into the CEO's pocket.
Side note: Wes, if you make a "360 turn", where are you headed...?
Tim G in MN
Big Breasted News Blonds? Heh. Here in Doity Joisey we call them News Bunnies and let it go at that.
Well, you also have to remember that fifty or sixty years ago, those nice 3-axis airline sims just didn't exist. Training was done in the air and there was no shortage of crashes during training evolutions, such as two-engine out approaches in DC-4s and the like. The four-course ranges were problematic and the legs could shift under some weather conditions.
Piston engines were horribly unreliable, compared to modern turbines, which is why DC-7s were often referred to as "three engined airplanes with four-bladed propellers."
Better engines, better avionics, better training facilities, all of those did a lot to reduce the accident rate.
But we have a two-tiered airline system, now, and the commuters are sliding down towards the freight dogs for pay and training. The commuters hire low-time pilots and the pilots are, in turn, happy to have a job where they can only afford to live in crash pads and eat ramen noodles, because they are building time in order to get hired by the majors. So the commuters have a system that almost guarantees they will have pilots with far less flight time than the majors.
Bottom line: You get what you pay for.
I seem to remember the preliminary reports saying that this accident was caused by a tailplane stall, the correct response to which would have been to pull back on the stick. If the NTSB's original opinion was that it was a tailplane stall, though it was not in reality, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the captain might have thought it was a tailplane stall and reacted accordingly? I could be wrong, I've never flown a plane with a horizontal stabilizer like the Q400, but I know you have, Dave, and I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I haven't seen anything that indicates whether this crew's training was done in the sim or the airplane.
In either case it was significantly lacking; and a big finger points at the FAA. As most know, if an approach to a stall goes into the stick pusher on a check ride, it is automatic failure. There is no requirement to even demo the stick pusher in training. You are not supposed to go there.
After some years of instructing, I modified my personal syllabus and required an approach to a stall with the auto-pilot on. I tried to make it a surprise, which was not too easy to do-- good I suppose. But, even if the crew knew it was coming they often did not recover before the pusher. It was very enlightening for them.
The typical approach to stall as trained and tested is actually negative training. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
Having said that; commuting is a problem. I did it for awhile and gave it up. I always got in the day before a trip because I could not bear the thought of being late; but many commuters did as this F/O did and traveled right up to check-in. I guess the Captain could not afford a crash-pad? Not a good situation.
Oldflyer
This accident occured because a weak Captain was paired with a weak FO. Not all pilots are created equal. In the FO's case, she was new (inexperienced). If you read the transscipt, she was calling for gear up seconds before impact. She was fighting all the way to ground. You can't be taught that (I think she had a great future ahead of her).She was in over her head. The Captain was probably one of these guys you always had to watch. Guess what! EVERY airline has one (or more). In the NTSB animation gear and flaps come out while the autopilot maintains altitude and the power levers never move. Airspeed instantly falls off,the rest is history. I have become fixated on instruments during approaches, and had the other pilot snap me out it. Its common when you are tired. Unfortunetly they couldn't back each other up this time. I've walked in these pilots shoes. It's tough. Hopefully rest, pay, and other safety issues will be addressed. As pilots though, we can't show up to work, half asleep, to fly five legs in North-east icing.
What I don't get is the experience issue. I guess pilots are supposed to train students in a 172for 6000 hours in the same geographical region the majority of the time and then they're experienced? In having read Daves posts since day 1, it appears that a lot of the "experience" a 20,000 hour airline pilot gains has to do with weather patterns and how it effects his fuel planning, and overall airline operations etc. I think the main lesson every pilot can learn from 3407 is.....to watch your airspeed, esp on short final, be it a 152 or a 747. It's just a little offensive to aspiring pilots when the media blames young people, new to a professional career,...for not being experienced veterans. Fact of the mater is, is that a lot of those young low time regional pilots, if they don't get out of the industry becuase it sucks so much, are going to be 20,000 hour experienced pilots at the end of their career.
BugSmasher - I think you nailed it - he probably reacted correctly to the wrong stall type!
As far as pay goes, the copilot made 23K a year; not the captain!! Come on!
There is no information on exactly how much the captain made, only that the average captain at Colgan Air made 67K a year, so it is an undisputed fact that he made way more than 23K a year.
Some of the comments here are heading in the same direction as the news! Completely un-educated.
as a soon to be student pilot the media coverage on this is driving me nuts.
What, specifically, brought this Dash 8 down? De-iceing system was on prior to takeoff;the pilots noted the accumulation of ice on the airframe nevertheless. Obviously concerned.... and went down shortly thereafter.
bugsmasher- I do not know. There must have been something wrong with the de-icing system. I flew the Dash 8-100 and it would haul the proverbial ton of ice with no problem. And we said (on a regular basis), "Holy s*&t, I have never see so much ice." But, we did not crash, obviously. The captain might have thought he had a tail plane stall. It is an amazing accident. The Dash 8Q400 is a serious aircraft.
anonymous 130- you got it right on the first attempt. Congrads!
anonymous 812- I watched the NTSB video and it looks like the crew let the airspeed get to low. I have no idea if the de-ice was working.
It would appear that Colgan had another incident with a Dash just yesterday. The right landing gear assembly came apart upon touchdown and they lost a wheel. Amazingly this was captured on video by one of the pax. Nothing to do with the crew off course but maybe this airline´s way of running its ops is to blame. Who knows. These things do happen from time to time but one cannot help thinking bad things. We call it the Crash 8 after all the SAS landing gear incidents. NG means "new gear" :)
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/05/14/9460296.html
Captain Dave,
I am a faithful reader who is a very fearful yet very frequent flyer. Your blog and a couple of others have helped me to understand the flying process and thus relieve my fear to the extent that it is manageable to fly. You have helped me to appreciate the reliability of the aircraft and the training and professionalism of the pilots and crew into whose hands I place my life. I understand your anger about the negative press regarding these pilots - I too work in a profession in which good people are villified when a complicated situation goes badly. It IS maddening. Having said all of that, what are those of us to do who have no option but to fly on regional carriers? Clearly, individuals aside, there are industry issues about training, experience and compensation for regional pilots. Is there any way to differentiate the safer options within those carriers and the aircraft they use? And one more thing, I have noticed that the legacy airline I fly most often is switching over more and more to the regionals on many routes. Is it at all possible that more experienced pilots are now flying the regional aircraft since the larger jets are being used less often? Thanks very much for the service you provide.
Dave -- I was wondering if you've been following Sam's discussion of the crash at FL250. His latest post discusses how the airlines train for stalls, arguing that current training entails a more limited response (by discouraging trading altitude for getting out of the stick-shaker situation earlier) than is appropriate.
I'm curious how the stick-shaker works in FiFi -- especially given the generalization that the Airbus software won't let you fly the plane into a disaster -- and what you think of Sam's argument.
-a loyal fan
There seems to be a lot of tough critisim of the pilots, airlines, media, etc. I beg you to remember, all of this is in the preliminary stages. There is a long way to go in this investigation. I think the point of Dave's very well written (as always) post is we shouldn't jump to conclusions until there is a complete finding of facts. None of us in aviation takes these incidents lightly. Everytime there is an issue, no matter how small, we revisit procedures to make sure only the best are serving in their capacity. Are there some issues that Colgan and others need to review? Sure there are. Where deos the fault lie? We won't know the answer for months yet. In the meantime, continue to fly. Overall it is still the safest way to travel. If you can't stomach the uncertainty, there are other modes of transportation but remember, there is always uncertainty.
Thank you, Dave.
A very heartfelt "Thank You" from a Dash 8 Captain, from his man cave. The wife of my 36 yr old current age (youth or not, my state of mind is awry) is dipping her purty toes in a pool in PBI, many a mile from home. I'm glad she's having a good time right now, but miss her so.
God, you nailed it.
The iron is ready and the starch is standing by for my trip late tomorrow afternoon. I don't know how many more days of phenomenally rude and just plain stupid aspersions I can take, but this post will certainly help.
Thanks so much.
I wouldn't even get out of bed for $25,000 a year! It's unbelievable that that is all they make considering the responsibility they carry.
To Anonymous who posted a comment on May 14: My father died in a very similar situation...retired captain of a major commercial airline...recently retired, his passion was to fly. He had scrimped and saved to buy himself his much-earned retirement gift of a single engine airplane after years of research he found the perfect Mooney M20. On his first flight in it (the paperwork had not even completed transferring from the previous owner yet) with a flight instructor, doing stall maneuvers at a low altitude, it went into a "graveyard spin" and crashed nose first into a grove of trees on a farmer's property in the middle of the afternoon on a bright, sunny day 2 days after Christmas. I don't remember much from that day or the sequence of events from being in shock, but I do recall turning on the news and they flashed a picture of my father on the evening news that my mother in shock and disbelief had given to the reporter that immediately showed up at their home following the crash. Forever burned in my brain is the picture of a close up taken from a hovering helicopter above the crumpled plane showing the tail (still intact) and his tail number and a white sheet covering what remained of the cockpit area and the obvious carnage so it would not be blasted all over the viewing area. The media truly disgusts me...they are like vultures hovering above a fresh kill each one diving in for a piece. My father's accident has completely destroyed our family..and the cherished closeness we once had will never ever exist again. Life for me has changed forever and will never be the same again. I cannot express how deeply it breaks my heart to think of these 2 crew member's families and what they must be going through right now. Especially the captain's children. It is absolutely gut-wrenching to watch this smear campaign continue. Not discounting the passenger's families, etc...but the media has just ignited a firestorm of blame and now these grieving people have someone to blame and make it personal. They should be blaming the company and the people running the company. Like the woman who spoke at one of the hearings representing Colgan Air in her black suit and wearing a giant cross around her neck. All PR. What a crock. Anyway, I digress. So very tragic all the way around. Anonymous said it much more eloquently but I identify as well with the crew's families.
Dave-
Sorry this is not a "great blog" your an "awesome writer" when are you going to write a "book" comment that rightfully frequents most all of your posts. Yes, you write a terrific and enlightening blog. For those of your readers interested in being exposed to exceptional writing on matters of aviation---they ought visit the Vanity Fair website & read the June 2009 article that dissects the "miracle on the Hudson" & that authors previous writings on aviation including "The Devil at 37,000...".
Hopefully you realize that immediately stating that you previously stated their "would be no more posts" regarding the "Dash 8" topic followed by a "but" is actually very bad writing. Following that opening with "just ask any Co-Pilot who flies with me" is very very bad writing (How should a reader of your blog go about contacting these colleagues as suggested by you?).
The thesis of your blog is "Life on the line...", which is a very clever tag-line. In your own words, you have described this as a pretty strict "window" into the the experiences you encounter flying a transport jet for a major airline. Flight Level 390 is not meant as a "soap box" upon which you engage in outside of the Flight Deck topics such as "West vs. East" court battles.
Beating upon the media for headline grabbing fear mongering...and just "plain" dopey reporting...is "Off the line". In regards to the specific topic your addressing in "Dash 8, part 4"...your correct, Aviation Safety is phenomenal and improving...but is that because of better pilots or better airplanes? A body of evidence has now been made public---and the media is reporting upon it---that paints a very compelling and precise accounting of what occurred aboard the Dash 8 in question. For pilots and aviation enthusiasts, the evidence is to put it mildly....disappointing. Those "passengers" who were "gripping their seats" (again bad writing, how do you know this? does any data recorder measure such a parameter?)...were very accomplished citizens....who were on the wrong plane, on the wrong flight, on the wrong day...because the "inexperienced" crew was just "all wrong".
Keep up the great writing...from inside the flight deck...postings like "Dash 8, part 4" only detract from both your thesis and abilities.
-Ryan Costello
I have read this post and comments with interest. I am not aware of any news on this outcome of this investigation here - probably because our TV newscasts have been focusing obsessively on the politics and fanning the flames of extreme arguments as Western Australians prepared to go to the poll for the 4th time in 40 years for yet another referendum on daylight saving!
I Googled and read the transcript and some news reports and got the picture. My heart sincerely goes out to the grieving families and all those affected by this tragedy.
Re profanity, when my growing sons started to swear, I got them to find out their meanings from the dictionary and persuaded them to hold back using them in conversation, so they would have something to use if an appropriate time arose.
It sounds like Dave chose an appropriate time!
Ryan Costello - re your editing criticisms, why are you directing these at Dave? It is the readers of this blog who have made the many affirming comments about his writing - not Dave himself!
I think your petty critiquing of his style very rude. Direct it at Dave's readers if you wish to prove us mistaken about our appreciation for his writing.
Dave
Great post, as usual.
Ryan Costello - sorry, but your grammar is a little lacking for someone making a criticism of another's writing skills (or alleged lack thereof). Start with learning the difference between "your" and "you're". Just a suggestion.
I'm not a writer, so pointing out my mangled syntax or proper usage of "you-your-you're" is appreciated but not relevant. It is Dave's blog, and he is the writer. In the past, when a reader commented upon a grammatical error...Dave has been thankful and forthright in that he "re-reads" a post several times for any/all errors. The point of my post (and yes I did also point out that Dash 8, Part 4 wasn't Dave's best writing in my opinion)...was more along the lines that Dave's topics about his "life on the line" are entertaining, fun, enjoyable reads. When the topic strays "off of the line" the blog becomes opinion (which Dave has done a phenomenal job of avoiding) opposed to experience (which Dave does a phenomenal job of retelling). If Dave were to start adding "opinion"...the blog might become tedious as he discussed labor topics, bad grapes management, unruly passengers. It is Dave's blog, and he has earned a loyal readership on the basis of his capturing "life on the line" and avoiding opinion and editorializing. That doesn't mean he should not address aviation topics like "Dash 8"...But, it would be more enlightening to hear what Dave's fellow pilots and coworkers think about this topic while Dave encounters them upon "the line"...not hearing Dave's opinion about the media being lousy at reporting upon matters of aviation. Wouldn't it be more "on point" and desirable to hear of a First Officer that Dave flew with who formerly flew for the airline that operated this crashed Dash 8, their experience with the aircraft in icing conditions, their rest cycle, their path to promotion and upgrading, etc....or is it more interesting to read the lyrics of a Don Henley song and criticism for the media? -Ryan
Ryan Costello: a blog is personal. If Dave thinks it's relevant, it's relevant. If you don't like it, leave the post unread.
I note that our bus drivers get an average 14 hours free in a day, including travel time. A double-decker carries about the same number as a Dash-8.
This is a legal requirement due to some high-profile carnage long ago.
I doubt their job is any easier though the demands are different.
From one of Capt Dave's former posts...
"Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment".
I'm pretty sure he quoted another, more senior, silver haired Captain. The industry gets safer with every landing (hopefully soft). Thanks for a great blog Cap-E-Ton
A blog is "personal"? A personal "diary" is personal. Dave's blog is "relevant" because his "job" is unique. If one did the "math" using exaggerated #'s like 900K Airline Pilots in the USA, divided by the population of the USA approx 320,000,000...that equals 0.0028%. Pretty rare. Dave's blog is "relevant" because of the intense training & dedication & re-training & re-re-retraining it takes to be a commercial airline pilot. Dave's blog is relevant because he focuses primarily upon "what it is like". If Dave were to stray from "life on the line..." to "life at the layover hotel while on the line...", readership would probably fall off a cliff. Dave's blog is very good. Most readers of FL390 can "guess" what airline Dave is employed by...would an interesting "topic" not be, how after 3+ years do "things work" at one airline that has 2 separate pilot groups working entirely apart? Probably more interesting then sucky media coverage of an inept Dash 8 crew.-Ryan
Ryan Costello - Wow Ryan nice job telling Dave what kind of topics he should and shouldn't post in his own blog. I can think of a few published airline pilot authors in some magazines who are much less articulate in their writings than Dave is here on this blog. Most of what Dave writes is an opinion. What he interprets as "way cool" many of his fellow pilots or passangers may not. Dave pays attention to detail and likes to cross his t's and dot his i's. This detail about dave no doubt carries over into the flight deck.
Dave has written about everything from skin heads, motorcycle riding, and WW2 veterans. Hell hes even wrote about cats once. All of this is relevant to the large majority of his fans who have an invested interest in him as a pretty decent human being. And last time I checked "life on the line" had something to do with sleeping in hotels while your on the road. Learning about how two different pilot groups function at an airline is a very interesting topic that we'd love to here about. But when a senior airline captain has something to say about an aviation disaster we'll listen to that to. Especially us pilots.
Maybe next time before you go off sounding like the foremost authority on writing and start to criticize a talented writer such as Dave about their "thesis" and their "bad writing" you'll think about how foolish it sounds. Especially when you'r not a writer and you have to apologize for your "mangled" syntax.
Great Post Dave.
What shameful media we have. I'm not allowed to hold the converter anymore in my house.
Waaay off topic here, Dave but wanted your comments if possible. I'm scheduled for a trip to Peru later this year. The final leg is in an A-319 from Lima (SPIM) to Cuzco (SPZO). Cuzco is 10,800 ft. with a runway just short of 12,000 ft. Can you address the technical considerations for that arrival and departure? Obviously larger engines and high speeds in the thin air. I recall on an earlier post you mentioned most aircraft are designed for work below 8,000 ft. What about passenger limits and weight? Thanks! Love your blog!!
I think Mr. Ryan Costello has achieved his objective: To have a moment of personal popularity, and have someone listen by riding on Flight Level 390's success. Chances are, if he had written this on his own blog, nobody would have ever seen it.
Mr. Costello, be nice to Capt. Dave. If it werent for his successful blog, nobody would even know who you are!
Dave writes a "terrific" & "enlightening" blog. Most of what Dave writes is absolutely NOT "opinion"...re-read the previous post "Over The Marker Beacon", aside from his opinions on what makes bad coffee, it is predicated in capturing that moment (experiences) of "life on the line" (i.e. What Dave does, What Dave feels, what Dave says). How Dave retells an experience is what makes his blog special. Adding Skin-heads-WW2-Astronauts-House Cats to a specific posting makes for colorful reading---a good thing---that further engages the loyal readership of FL390, and can be both observation and opinion. "Dash 8, Part 4" was Dave's opinion of how the MEDIA does its job & how "F"rustrating that is to Dave.
Wanting 15 mins of "personal popularity" from the "comment" section of an Airline Pilot blog, is a pretty narrow "popularity" grab...maybe I should go hand out mints at the exit to a spicy restaurant instead! Seriously...Dave is a good writer...but not all good writers always write good pieces. The writers readership should comment on "good" v. "not so good". But, that is also subjective, some readers of FL390 might feel that "Dash 8, Part 4" was a terrific post that voiced how the MEDIA looks to sensationalize everything, especially anything that preys upon public "fear" (i.e. airline crash...swine flu, anybody?). Unfortunately, the chain that lead to this accident (Maintenance, Fatigue, Management, Commuting, Design, Training) ends with a CVR transcript that captures all of these failings---& unfortunately---easily assigns in a "sound bite" all the blame for everything upon the pilots. -Ryan
I really don't know why someone [with as much operational experience & knowledge as Capt Dave] posting his opinions on his blog would ruffle someones feathers like this.
Is there a law out there that says someone can't express their opinion in their own blog?
Look around; almost 85% of the Internet is made up of peoples opinions; some are good, some are just goofy and most are like this one: take it for what it's worth and move on.
Personally, I'd rather read about it [Dave's opinions on this event]from someone like Dave since knowing the integrity of the source, it makes that particular opinion worthy of further consideration and possibly leads one to the conclusion he knows what the hell he's talking about!
RD
Ryan - Those passengers were gripping their seats, its instinctive. Have you never been to an amusement park with a roller coaster drop? What do your hands do on the drop? They grip the bar in front. Or the side ones if you go to Disney in Florida.
I suggest if you wish to experiment with this go to Las Vegas. There's a ride on top of the Stratosphere where you & another person in a chair are lifted over the building and then tilted forward. I think you'll get the idea when your hands are gripping the seat knowing you are looking at death some 900 feet below if the ride fails...
Costello,
Thanks for giving Dave and the rest of the pilots who read his blog, a good laugh. If you think you are the first person to correct a pilot on grammar and sentence structure, you are sorely mistaken. I think it starts in grade 1 and ends after freshman english in college, when the Professor gives up hope. I think it is safe to say you have had the preverbial sand kicked in your face once or twice (in and out of the classroom). I can only guess that someone you respect told you how much they enjoy this blog, and you immedietly felt threatened. How could they enjoy this more than what I write? Get over it. While you are on this site try to learn something, if your inflated ego will permit it.
ryan costello- my wife is a college dean and is, mostly, horrified by my grammar and writing skills, so you are not alone in your opinion.
On the other hand, I am not trying to win any writing contests, nor do I want to write a book. The best airline pilot writer, E. Gann, has been gone for a long time; I could not carry his pen and paper.
The only reason I do this is for something to do in hotel rooms, other than channel surfing. It has taken on a life of its own in the past five years.
Anyway, thanks for stopping in and feel free to criticize my grammar.
Sorry...
Don Henley lyrics, dropping "F-bombs", & describing the anatomy of a news person is just not good writing. Integrity of the source? You're correct...I am assuming inference here...that the media lacks certain integrity & almost always embellishes when it comes to airline/airplane accidents (i.e. "fear" sells). Do these two pilots deserve to be "muddied"? Check out the NTSB animation synced with the voice & data recorder from the public hearings...ahh, why does he keep pulling back on the controls? Fatigue? The one on the left had 22 hours off before the accident flight & the one on the right had 3 days. Icing? NTSB has ruled that out---and they are the "good guys" opposed to the FAA.
The most integrity-bound & impartial newscaster...in consideration of the "C"aptain having failed 5 FAA flight tests in his career...would have a tough time not sounding like a fear-monger.
Dave is a good blog writer when he blogs about "life on the line". The "ruffled feathers" are from other blog readers taking offense at any criticism of a Dave posting...babbling about throwing "sand" & "personal popularity"...is just dopey. In an effort to "learn"...how many AIRLINE pilots reading this comment have failed 5 FAA flight tests, or flown with somebody that has, know somebody who has...heard of somebody who has a friend who knows somebody who...? Have you Dave? A bogus answer is "The pilot failing 5 FAA flight tests & not being terminated is the fault of the employer." 5 fails means the pilot wasn't too professional or caring about his career...or that he did a good job of covering his previous failings from his current employer. Whatever the case, he snuffed a bunch of innocents "out" when he yanked back on that stick for some totally unknown reason (he was never---and I am making a 1st grade guess here--- was trained to do that in order to recover from a stall)...& that is a terrible FACT no matter who is reporting/telling it. -RC
anonymous 252- uh, what? Sort of a strange comment, even so, I will take a stab at it. I have watched the NTSB video and it is very interesting. They lost of control of the aircraft in a very short span of time. If the tail stalled, the correct action (maybe) is to pull back on the stick. If the wings stalled, the correct action is to relax pitch, level wings, full power, and then fly out of the stall. I am quite sure he was trained to do this. Icing probably did have some impact on this accident.
Have I ever known anyone who has failed 5 checkrides? Probably. A lot of folks have simitus and do not do well while someone is looking over there shoulder. I would bet 25% of all Line pilots have busted 3-5 checkrides. That is why there is an FAA approved re-testing program.
I am not comfortable with accusing these two pilots of being incompetent. You say they killed innocent passengers; yes, that is true but all air crashes do that. The only reason this is being sensationalized is because of the intense media coverage, most of it inaccurate, incomplete, or misunderstood by the reporters.
Fatigue? Well, being a Line pilot is very stressful, expecially for the captain. They could have been fatigued.
The FAA are not good guys? You do not know what you are talking about. I say the Feds are doing a good job with what they have to work with, especially the ATC bunch and the pilot safety inspectors. I also say that some of the NTSB recommendations are ridiculous and would drive the airlines out of business.
Maybe I'm "too" smart.. Or maybe I'm taking Dave's words to fit my own view but I think some of the comments just dont get it.
This hurts, everytime, it's so difficult to put in words, it is the weirdest kind of "pain". You hear just a few words from the news and you know what it is, you make your own picture and discard the information that does not seems reliable, you elaborate about the most probable causes and then you make your own estimation of the chances of survival, then this weird feeling settles on you and you promise yourself not to think about it, all of this just in a few seconds, then you try to keep your mind busy on something else but you know it's wishful thinking, for it waits in the back of your mind for the time to be right.
Think of someone you love being runned over by a truck and now think of someone complaining about your language when you learned about it.. It's just so off context, It's like what galaxy are you guys from? Do you really think you are anywhere close to the subject at matter?
Maybe its their way of trying to be constructive, or maybe they just dont realize they have nothing to say. Perhaps it would be better not saying a word, just letting the talker do the talk and letting him know you are listening.
Sometimes things are said not because they pretend to be argued about, but because they ask to be said hoping someone might be on the same frequency and decode the message as it was ment.
I used to be a pilot too and a flight instructor. I loved it so much I died the day I had to let it go, life had different plans for me.
Dave's words "Life on the line" describe a picture far more deep and meaningful that it may seem to the groundborne, that is most of us humans.
Being airborne means a lot more than training in high tech simulators. It's a challenge that works in a different way, the competition is against yourself. Do you know of any school or training program that teaches people how to become perfect machines? I dont think so. They can teach you how to fly an airplane but they can't change your human nature and we humans are prone to error.
Its also the kind of experience you can have day after day and still fall in love with it every time.
It is not supposed to go wrong, in the same way nobody is supposed to die the day of their wedding, or the day their first child is born.
There is not a single cell in our human brain designed to understand a disaster like this. We deal with it anyway we can but there is a plus if you are a pilot: You dont want to fall to the same stone yet you know you are human.
And so are those who fly with you and those who maintain the aircraft you fly.
Humans tend to make mistakes, given enough time eventually we all will make one.
Let me tell you something about the pilots of 3407 you dont need to be a NASA scientist to know: They knew almost inmediatly they were going down and with them all those that trusted their lives to them.
I dont want to go down like that. I'm sure neither did they.
Lets give them a break.. Will you?
Wait, why in most posts does is Ryan anonymous, but in one post he is "B6 Ambivalant Expert" HHHMMMMM.....
And that's not how you spell ambivalent...
But....back on topic....Dave's blog is Dave's blog. Sure, you may like it better when he doesn't give his opinion, but you can't force the guy to write what you want him to.....he never said it was a writer....just a pilot kickin' some ideas around.
Thanks Dave. Great post as usual. This kind of news seem too usual for today. Maybe it's the fact that todays crasy society seems to be drooling for tragedy... All consideration was forgotten long time ago.
This kind of attacking on the dead pilots is not acceptable and is guite frankly sick. This makes my stomach turn. This seems to be the case no matter what happens, a crash or a close call(Capt. Sully), there is allways an investigation that tells us what went wrong and gives one a change to learn how to avoid getting in to these situations, but the media puts the blame game all over it. This not only makes it hard for a Joe regular to see the real reasons but causes "unwanted" panic in folks.
Then there are the families who are left to grieve their lost ones, families of the passengers as well as the families of the crew. My condolenses for them. This crap must feel overwhelming for them.
RP
(Sorry for my bad english, this was written whit a high blood pressure)
Dave- I have been following from the beginning the events of 3407 on www.pprune.org Although there are differing opinions and approaches to the discussion thankfully on the whole the professional input has been invaluable. Leslie S-P
Great post Dave,
Ryan you are complaining about Dave sticking to matters of "life on the line..." Topics like this are everyday general conversation/opinion for pilots flying the line.
BM
Dave, great blog! Just started reading it, and I take inspiration from yours for mine.
Yes, the media IS sensationalizing this accident, but the latest descriptions of the pilot error involved is accurate, unfortunately. The difference is that the NTSB is unusually loose lipped on this one, and the media is chomping at the bit for the next news cycle.
Inexperienced pilots aren't the only ones who have had disasterous airline accidents by their own fault. In the 80's a few especially henious fatal accidents occured at the hands of very experienced but careless airline pilots. Complacency can bite any pilot in the butt if one permits it to.
In this one it's clear that both pilots let the plane reach stick shaker speed. The Captain didn't see to correct for the speed, and the First Officer didn't either, I presume, until it was too late. Both of their actions to recover from the situation made the aircrafts' condition worse, and led the plane into a full wing stall and spin.
Although I have my opinions, I won't speculate here why each pilot reacted as they did. I do believe that the inexperience of the Captain in the aircraft and the inexperience of the First Officer in general were main contributing factors in this accident.
Just a question, any answer would be appreciated. As I've read, the pilot of the Q400 pulled up when the stick shaker started which may have aggravated the situation. In the CRJ900 we pull up when stick shaker starts, to about 10 degrees above horizon with full power. What do you guys do in the 319/320?
Dave,
As usual, you never fail to show your total class and intelligence ... unlike a certain "Costello" character who lives up to his name perfectly. Thank you for your perspectives Dave. Your humility and (sorry, Wife of Your Youth) writing is highly respected. To Costello: your (yes, YOUR) unintended humor is priceless. With the important distinction that you ARE the joke.
To more important commenters.. those of you who have lost your pilot loved ones.. my heart sincerely goes out to you. How completely devastating. I hope there can be some level of peace for you some day.
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